Publicerades den 15 sep 2020
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Levon Aronian vs Magnus Carlsen
FIDE World Rapid Championship (2019), Round 12 12-28-2019
Queen's Gambit Declined, Semi-Tarrasch defence (D40)
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 c5 5. cxd5 exd5 6. g3 Nc6 7. Bg2 cxd4 8. Nxd4 Bc5 9. Nxc6 bxc6 10. O-O O-O 11. Qc2 Bb6 12. Na4 Bd7 13. b3 Re8 14. Bb2 h5 15. h4 Ne4 16. e3 Rc8 17. Nxb6 axb6 18. Qd1 Bf5 19. Qxh5 Qd7 20. Qd1 c5 21. Re1 Rcd8 22. Rc1 Bh3 23. Qf3 f6 24. Bxh3 Qxh3 25. Rcd1 b5 26. Qg2 Qe6 27. f3 Nd6 28. g4 d4 29. Qd2 Qd5 30. exd4 c4 31. Ba3 Qxf3 32. Qg2 Rxe1+ 33. Rxe1 Qc3 34. Rd1 b4 35. Bb2 Qe3+ 36. Qf2 Qh3 37. Qg2 Qe3+ 38. Qf2 Qe4 39. Qg2 c3 40. Bc1 c2 41. Rf1 Qxd4+ 42. Kh2 Qe5+ 43. Kg1 Qc5+ 44. Kh2 Nf7 45. g5 Qe5+ 46. Kh1 Rd1 47. g6 Nd8 48. Qf3 Rxf1+ 49. Qxf1 Qe4+ 50. Qg2 Qxh4+ 51. Kg1 Qd4+ 52. Kh2 Qd1 53. Qe4 Kf8 54. Qxb4+ Ke8 55. Qb5+ Ke7 56. Qc5+ Ke6 57. Qc8+ Ke5 58. Bb2+ Ke4 59. Qb7+ Nxb7
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  • Turn on the confirm move option.

  • Can they speak the moves instead of using mouse? I think saying wrong square is less likely than mouse slip

  • Easy fix. Make a touch screen interface.

  • To get rid of mouse slips use Ipads only. Get rid of the mouse, you get rid of the mouse slip. And everyone gets an ipad. Tim Cook is very happy about that.

  • In online game it is possible to install an "enter" mechanism. You play and then you approve what you have done with enter, sending your movement.

  • Voice control !

  • I'd argue that at this level most apparent mouse slips are indeed mouse sleeps and not obvious blunders, and even if they are blunders I'd rather give the blunderer a second chance than let the game be decided by an absent minded mistake

  • I read the comments and almost every proposal seems ok to me. I do not think It will solve all mouse slips but they will approach a better and fair playing. One I could think of today is the following: the player will have to speak out loud the play he/she wants to make. Like: "queen F4" while moving the piece. If the piece is not moved to the same square that the voice commanded, simply corrects it. Of course, if you speak a move incorrectly you are screwed, or maybe if you have time left you can correct it, I don't know. But a simple pc mic program could hear you fine. Again, the program should be good because c2, e2, b2, d2 all sounds alike, he he.

  • You could have it so you click the piece then click where you want the piece to go. This way you can't accidentally let go of the piece. You could also make multiple ways to move pieces which the player picks, so it's less likely they will make a mouse slip. Obviously dragging the piece where you want it to go already exists. You could click the piece then use keyboard short cuts to move it. Just make lots of ways to move pieces so people can choose the best method for them. :)

  • You made a seven-minute video on this? Come on. This was repetitive and mostly uninteresting.

  • maybe just voice the moves and let voice recognition software move the pieces?

  • when a terrible move happens the engine stops the time and ask you if it was a mistake also it gives you 3 seconds to say if it was or not and it's only allowed 3 times for each player that would reduce the mistakes by 99% some might think that it can help player but actually there is a very little chance of blunders in grandmaster games

  • agamator's funny moments - senewss.info/slow/iLeZZtB1ad7LqJk/video

  • The return pickup truck is in his circles and the other world soon to discuss tomorrow or Friday dinner with my or not to mention that the return of income from home attending various critical care and support to the exact time for a job in the morning fresh as well as the registered owner

  • once happen that mouseslip hinder me from blunder

  • We can fix mouse slips by assigning the probability it's a mouse slip using statistical models. For example, if the computer detects a hover with a piece over a square and then a sharp move to a different square into a position that the computer shows as a huge blunder, then the probability of a slip is high, although not impossible. Many other factors such as dropping a piece on the boundary between two squares could also be indicative among many other possible factors. I would say that if the probability is over 95% that it's a mouse slip, a take-back should be allowed. Of course, the example you give in the video might be one of those 5% mistakes, which is a cost, but improving issues with mouse-slips would make the game better. chess.com is already using statistical models/machine learning for detecting cheaters, why not do the same for mouse slips? The takeback can only be requested if the opponent has not yet moved in response. Then upon reversing the alleged mouse slip, the player is penalized the worse of 1 second or 2% of their remaining clock, and may only move the piece which slipped; no moving a different piece.

  • I don’t want to talk about mouse slips bc I was actually beating Magnus in an intense 3 minute blitz match online until the dreaded mouse slip. :( Then the alarm clock went off and woke me up.. ;)

  • You can avoid it by using a Touchpad👍

  • Have you washed your hands after receiving mail pls take care of yourself

  • What if you speak the move you want?

  • maybe confirming each move by pressing the ENTER key could help a bit... unless we'd learn to just hit it automatically and to do so even right after mouse-slips, before realizing that it was a mouse slip...

  • How about having a voice recording during the game, so that the arbitrator can notice if it is a mouse slip. As for example in this video, Levon could have said Qa8, and dropped the queen on the wrong square (if it was online game). What do you suggest?

  • Voice command for move placement that if a disagreement between voice and motion of the hand takes place within a small enough frame of each other a predecided preference of hand or voice decides the move but only if the move was made within a time frame of it being "said" or placed be some other mechanism This isn't a fix as much as a bandaid. If I say castle n move my king one square with castle being preferred by the decision making mechanism it will correct to castles in the same motion of direction. If I can king and queens side castle but my mouse moves towards king n drops then preference is preserved but we have a coordinate system above a set of laws we can build a fix

  • You could play on a tablet much easier and less chances of a mistake happening

  • Use touchscreen with your computer, fold it backwards and make it like a chessboard?

  • The move confirmation may actually be a good solution. Players should be able to enable and disable it during the game easily, so they can start the game with that mode on, and then turn it off when they are running out of time. And it is not a problem that this solution does not solve the issue when you have little time on the clock because managing to play without a slip with little time is actually a part of chess, a skill that good chess players should possess. So yeah, do it! :)

  • they could say their moves out loud before moving or write them down. Depending on the time format of course

  • It's not the entity of the mistake which makes a mouse slip obvious. The direction of mouse movement in the example would not be consistent between a8 and b7, so this one would not be obvious. Typical mouse slips are one square short in the right direction. Confirming moves could work but you get a small advantage by looking at the position after the move, however at GM level it could be negligible, and both players would be in the same situation, so it would still be fair. I guess it is unrealistic to think players could give a takeback like gentlemen?

  • When I started playing chess, in Germany, a long time before online games were a thing, we had a word for this kind of mistake: Fingerfehler. So, a mistake made by the fingers, not the brain.

  • The problem of inadequate equipment or user error exists in eSports as well. The solution is to always make sure you have the best equipment and that you take care to practice. We're talking about tournaments for thousands of dollars on the line. For some people, that means that every care should be taken so wins are not due to accidents. But another way to look at it is that spending an extra $60 on a mouse and an extra $30/month for better internet are sound investments.

  • The law of unintended consequences. Some will make mistakes that should be overturned but some will not. Why confuse the process? It is what it is and at the end of the day, it is just a game. Very nice example agadmator!

  • ... and then levon proceeded to blunder his queen against hikaru a few days after this video, during blitz of 2020 st louis rapid and blitz

  • just say the ending square of the move. 1. avoid mouse slip. 2. don't take much time (even don't say which piece - it's a real LOW possibility to mouse slip the initial piece to grab). 3. easily recognizable (with any speech recognition/just voice recording). 4. can be taken back and the time can be restored easily. 5. yes, it will give you 4-5 seconds to think, but for both sides - i think it doesn't matter. 6. restrict only 2 mouse slip in 1 minute...

  • 2:40 fantastic impression of your viewers.

  • voice chat

  • You could have one opportunity per game where you can cancel a movement within half second, for example, by clicking the right button of the mouse.

  • This is not a comment for likes i just one to know your aim in life

  • Interesting that all 3 were against Magnus. Like it's not bad enough for opponents already!

  • Maybe a player could move the piece first with the mouse (and be able to fix a mouse slip) and then hit 'enter' on the keyboard. This would simulate the live action of moving a piece and then tapping the clock, but it would allow the move to be adjusted before hitting 'enter.' A player might still have a mouse slip and hit 'enter' too quickly before noticing, but it would at least give a small protection.

  • I see Levon has been studying my games

  • Wysiwig , what you see is what you get

  • Just a suicide end perhaps , bang it’s over sounds good

  • Use a phone or a tablet

  • I'm convinced he waits, watching out the window until he can see the mailman arrive on his road, and starts the video, so he's guaranteed to be interrupted ;)

  • idea: hand slips don't happen in normal OTB chess because we don't place pieces on edges/corners, only on squares. So: the interface should not accept a move if the mouse was relatively far away from the center of thes quare at the moment of release

  • Maybe, once per game, you could press a button that undoes your last move if you press it no later than 3 seconds (or maybe 2) after you make a move, and only if your opponent hasn't submitted his move yet. And perhaps, so it can't be abused, it can have a cost of 20 or 30 seconds on your clock. That sounds like a reasonable solutions, although other commenters also offer interesting ones.

  • 3:35 it was in this position medo saw a completely new person

  • You can call out the move when you are playing it so if it’s a mouse slip then you can know

  • IMHO, online players should get an amount of possible takebacks per game (or the actual number may depend on the number of moves made so far, for example), which can be used for mouseslips within a few seconds after making a "mouseslipped" move (with no change in the thinking time), while the innocent opponent's time should be increased, by a certain amount of time, after such takebacks. Also, an important rule should be that the corrected move can be made only with "the mouslipped piece", the one that had been "touched". I think, that way less well-played online games would be decided by one obvious blunder.

  • why not confirming the move after any move?

  • not a pop up but some key shortcuts. two keys next to next, revert and confirm

  • Digital mouse trap!

  • It is how it isssss

  • I would love to hear, "sorry about this"

  • Seems reasonable to have to option to confirm moves in longer time formats.

  • Mouse slips are equal opportunity regardless of rating. I get its a big deal in tournament play but for average online players how often does it really happen? For me I have had 3 maybe 4 mouse slips. When I drop my queen in the path of the knight it isn't a mouse slip, it is a great sacrifice in order to achieve a successful loss.

  • Proposal: If within 2 seconds of a move AND your opponent hasn't moved yet, you hit RETRACT the move is taken back... BUT...5 seconds come off the clock (15 seconds in games of 5 minutes or more) AND you must move the piece that had the retraction.

    • Also, to prevent abuse of the RETRACT power, a player cannot use another retraction within 30 seconds, and are limited to just 2 per game.

  • When your mailman shows up at the same time as agadmator's mailman in the video. 😱😱😱

  • 23" Touch Screen.

  • i call it brain slip

  • *Takebacks* - If a player makes a mouse slip, he can ask his opponent for a take back and it would be up to his opponent wether to allow it or not. It doesen't determine if it's a mouseslip, as errors you realize instantly can be corrected this way too, but it's up to the opponent to decide, so I think it would be a solid solution.

  • Possible solutions would be: 1. announcing the move being played or 2. having a 2 second time window (or maybe 1 second) to say "mouse slip" or signal it somehow with your hand as the games stream includes video

  • How about using double move indications after a certain stage in the game? That is, you must drag your piece twice for the same move to confirm your intention. This option could be enabled by default, or be opt-in or out-out.

  • 3:35 Magnus is laughing.

  • Here's my attempt at it. Developers feel free to send me on a cheque when you make millions from it! You play on a touch screen, something like an ipad. But the key difference to how it works now is that the piece you're holding doesn't float under your finger, it snaps to the nearest legal square it can go to. When it is on the correct square, you lift your finger. That is the closest i can imagine to physical chess. You put the piece directly on the square, only then do you let go

  • SUGGESTION: First click where to place the piece and then select the piece you want to move. Might sound odd but it will help with solving the problem to a great extent.

  • Not a mechanism but simple pop-up which would say "Are you sure you want to make that move?" and that's it. If the player made and approved the move or blunder it's all on him, not mouse-slip.

  • Everyone can turn on setting called "double move confirmation". More time lost per move, but no mouse slips. I view mouse slips as good exchange for illegal moves, that are impossible on net.

  • Players could use eye trackers, that way we would know where they wanted to move

  • maybe if there was a delay after a move was made before the position is sent to your opponent, Say . . 10 seconds. And you have time to adjust your piece within that 10 seconds.

  • Possibly one thing that could be tried is having the players say the move out loud, however people can still misspeak or mumble. Human errors are just part of the game no matter what interface it is.

  • What about double click?

  • Press the enter key after putting the piece down, so the players can have 2 hands playing chess

  • click piece and say move to.......

  • What if once per game each player is able to take back a move, as long as the opponent has not finished their turn yet. Then also make it so that you don't get your time back and subtract the time that your opponent spent on their turn (as well as refunding the time the opponent had spent thinking prior to hitting the undo button).

  • But you have the chance to play after your opponent (and not during). The arrogance and speculation always gonna have their chance against you 🤦🏽‍♂️

  • It Would be good to make online chess more like over the board. let people play illegal moves and then they forfeit. This will help with flagging as crazy senseless premoves will make you lose.

  • Neuro-chess-link!

  • So to prevent a “mouse slip”, what if the software required the press and release of a key? For example, press the shift key, mouse click, move piece, release mouse button, release shift key and only then it’s official. Make it optional, as it might take some getting used to.

  • I mean a confirm move button would work fine

  • I have a view on an option that should be there if you play Kd1, Kd8, Kf1 or Kf8 when you can castle, for games with increment. You could castle but play Kf1. Your increment gets added on but _your_ clock stays ticking - during that time you either confirm move or click castle. Once the increment amount of time passes if you've done nothing it's black's turn and the game continues.

  • Double click problem solved times adjusted for the new extra click?

  • how did you manage to disapear from screen in such short video

  • Play as normal if the mouse slips a red square appears then turns yellow then green in that time of 1 and half seconds not allocated to the players time ( a buffer ) any mouse slip can be averted by clicking the piece again and placing it on the new square.

  • Medo jumps off the sofa a dog slip 😀

  • How about, we change the mouse ... to a dog?

  • I just think about this. What if pre move must be done by "click" rather than "drag"? Most of us have a case of mouse slip when we drag the piece but accidentally drop it on the wrong square. Making it done by "click" of course takes more time, but reduce the possibility of wrong drop significantly, I believe.... Any thoughts maybe?

  • Agree that there is no need to find a cure for mouse slips, but in Kasparov's case, it was the PRE-MOVE that followed it was to blame for the loss. Pre-move is at the player's risk.

  • A confirm move window would correct a mouse "slip" but then it would interfere with the time format. Perhaps blurring out the board whenever this window comes up would mitigate some of the advantage but I'm more of a watcher instead of player :)

  • players should First Write their moves and then move the piece

  • I don't agree with this about mouse slips at all. The problem is very simply that you move the pieces with the mouse and the move is immediately made rather than perhaps seeing the squares and pieces highlighted first (the piece you want to move from where to where) and then confirming that move. Not even Agadmator is going to convince me that this is not possible. A similar thing about playing tournaments from home. Some people will cheat and the players should at least be made to play the games from a local chess club where they can be monitored by a referee. Otherwise, when a player starts to make a series of "engine moves" counter-intuitive for humans, there will immediately be doubts in the future

  • All you need to solve the mouse slip issue is for the players to verbally state their move and then the computer moves their pieces or another player moves their pieces or there is a record of their move verbally.

  • The door knock was so subtle!

  • Elon Musk indirectly helping chess in the future by developing Neuralink!

  • Players have to practice quick moves with the mouse

  • The pop up would work at one level. It is on my chess.com

  • touchscreen for everyone and on at least 21 inch screen

  • Nakamura vs Dubov everyone.

  • 2:14 "Sorry about that" #1 3:32 "Sorry about that" #2 Regarding misclicks, a simple solution is just a *confirmation* by the interface for some selected cases would be very helpful.

  • Maybe it could be one way at least to avoid massive blunders like this one. If the mouse-slip move is a total blunder, as registered by an engine, the player should have 1 opportunity per game of 2 seconds after the move to press a button of "Mouse Slip" that would cancel the move. It could be an option to at least avoid insane mistakes that only amateurs do.